From: Ronaldo Reis-Jr. <chrysopa_at_gmail.com>

Date: Tue 06 Sep 2005 - 22:00:27 EST

*> Glycogen <-
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c(131,130,131,125,136,142,150,148,140,143,160,150,157,145,154,142,147,153,151,155,147,147,162,152,134,125,138,138,135,136,138,140,139,138,134,127)

*> Glycogen
*

[1] 131 130 131 125 136 142 150 148 140 143 160 150 157 145 154 142 147 153 151

[20] 155 147 147 162 152 134 125 138 138 135 136 138 140 139 138 134 127

*> Treatment <- factor(rep(c(1,2,3),c(12,12,12)))
*

*> Treatment
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[1] 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 Levels: 1 2 3

*> Rat <- factor(rep(rep(c(1,2),c(6,6)),3))
*

*> Rat
*

[1] 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 Levels: 1 2

*> Liver <- factor(rep(rep(c(1,2,3),c(2,2,2)),6))
*

*> Liver
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[1] 1 1 2 2 3 3 1 1 2 2 3 3 1 1 2 2 3 3 1 1 2 2 3 3 1 1 2 2 3 3 1 1 2 2 3 3 Levels: 1 2 3

*>
*

*> ### Model made identical to the book
*

*>
*

*> model <- aov(Glycogen~Treatment/Rat/Liver+Error(Treatment/Rat/Liver))
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*>
*

*> summary(model)
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Treatment:Rat:Liver 12 594.0 49.5

*>
*

*> ### Model made by myself, I'm interested only in Treatment effects
*

*>
*

*> model <- aov(Glycogen~Treatment+Error(Treatment/Rat/Liver))
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*>
*

*> summary(model)
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Date: Tue 06 Sep 2005 - 22:00:27 EST

Hi Spencer,

Em Dom 04 Set 2005 20:31, Spencer Graves escreveu:

> Others may know the answer to your question, but I don't. However,

*> since I have not seen a reply, I will offer a few comments:
**>
**> 1. What version of R are you using? I just tried superficially
**> similar things with the examples in ?aov in R 2.1.1 patched and
**> consistently got F and p values.
*

I'm using the R version 2.1.1 on Linux Debian Version 2.1.1 (2005-06-20), ISBN 3-900051-07-0

> 2. My preference for this kind of thing is to use lme in

*> library(nlme) or lmer in library(lme4). Also, I highly recommend
**> Pinheiro and Bates (2000) Mixed-Effects Models in S and S-Plus (Springer).
*

Yes, this is my preference too, but I need aov for classes.

> 3. If still want to use aov and are getting this problem in R 2.1.1,

*> could you please provide this list with a small, self contained example
**> that displays the symptoms that concern you? And PLEASE do read the
**> posting guide! "http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html". It might
**> increase the speed and utility of replies.
**>
**> spencer graves
*

I send the complete example. This is a example from the Crwaley's book (Statistical Computing: An introdution to data analysis using S-Plus.

This is a classical experiment to show pseudoreplication, from Sokal and Rohlf (1995).

In this experiments, It have 3 treatmens applied to 6 rats, for each rat it make 3 liver preparation and for each liver it make 2 readings of glycogen. This generated 6 pseudoreplication per rat. I'm interested on the effect os treatment on the glycogen readings.

Look the R analyses:

c(131,130,131,125,136,142,150,148,140,143,160,150,157,145,154,142,147,153,151,155,147,147,162,152,134,125,138,138,135,136,138,140,139,138,134,127)

[1] 131 130 131 125 136 142 150 148 140 143 160 150 157 145 154 142 147 153 151

[20] 155 147 147 162 152 134 125 138 138 135 136 138 140 139 138 134 127

[1] 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 Levels: 1 2 3

[1] 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 Levels: 1 2

[1] 1 1 2 2 3 3 1 1 2 2 3 3 1 1 2 2 3 3 1 1 2 2 3 3 1 1 2 2 3 3 1 1 2 2 3 3 Levels: 1 2 3

Error: Treatment

Df Sum Sq Mean Sq

Treatment 2 1557.56 778.78

Error: Treatment:Rat

Df Sum Sq Mean Sq

Treatment:Rat 3 797.67 265.89

Error: Treatment:Rat:Liver

Df Sum Sq Mean Sq

Treatment:Rat:Liver 12 594.0 49.5

Error: Within

Df Sum Sq Mean Sq F value Pr(>F) Residuals 18 381.00 21.17

Error: Treatment

Df Sum Sq Mean Sq

Treatment 2 1557.56 778.78

Error: Treatment:Rat

Df Sum Sq Mean Sq F value Pr(>F) Residuals 3 797.67 265.89 Error: Treatment:Rat:Liver Df Sum Sq Mean Sq F value Pr(>F) Residuals 12 594.0 49.5 Error: Within Df Sum Sq Mean Sq F value Pr(>F) Residuals 18 381.00 21.17 --------------------

What it dont calculate the F and P for treatment?

Thanks

Ronaldo

-- Tristezas não pagam dívidas. Nem bravatas, por falar nisso. --Millôr Fernandes Retirado de http://www.uol.com.br/millor -- |> // | \\ [***********************************] | ( õ õ ) [Ronaldo Reis Júnior ] |> V [UFV/DBA-Entomologia ] | / \ [36570-000 Viçosa - MG ] |> /(.''`.)\ [Fone: 31-3899-4007 ] | /(: :' :)\ [chrysopa@insecta.ufv.br ] |>/ (`. `'` ) \[ICQ#: 5692561 | LinuxUser#: 205366 ] | ( `- ) [***********************************] |>> _/ \_Powered by GNU/Debian Woody/Sarge ______________________________________________ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.htmlReceived on Tue Sep 06 22:12:40 2005

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